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Big Technology Podcast

The Pentagon's AI Plan + Behind the Anthropic Fight — With Under Secretary of War Emil Michael

4/15/20261 hr

Emil Michael is the Under Secretary of War for Research and Engineering at the Pentagon. Michael joins Big Technology to discuss how AI is transforming the Department of War, from targeting systems to drone warfare to cyber defense. Tune in to hear his account of why the Pentagon designated Anthropic a supply chain risk, what actually happened in the contract negotiations, and whether the decision was wise. We also cover how the military's Maven Smart System works in practice, what the U.S. learned from drone warfare in Ukraine and Iran, and whether the Pentagon Pizza Index is credible. Hit play for one of the most candid conversations you'll hear about AI and national security.

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Clips

Why U.S. Won’t Automate War
Why Anthropic Became Off-Limits
‘Cyber Nuclear Bomb’ Logic
Agents? Not For Combat Calls
Drone Wars: Cost Inversion
Speed, Friction, And Fewer Casualties
LLMs As Civilian Safeguards
Pentagon Pizza Index Debunked

Transcript preview

First 90 seconds

  1. Emil Michael· Guest0:00

    I worry about other countries using AI to take humans out of the decision-making progress. They don't trust their generals.

  2. Alex Kantrowitz· Host0:06

    If you were so close to being willing to work with them, then how could they end up being a supply chain risk?

  3. Emil Michael· Guest0:12

    It's just we don't want them in our supply chain. We don't wanna use them.

  4. Alex Kantrowitz· Host0:16

    Yeah.

  5. Emil Michael· Guest0:16

    President decided that he doesn't want the government to use them. If I went back to my office right now, it's like, how, how would I order a pizza from outside to be delivered in? I'd have no idea.

  6. Alex Kantrowitz· Host0:25

    So you're not a believer in the Pentagon Pizza Index?

  7. Emil Michael· Guest0:26

    I'm not a believer [laughs] in the Pentagon Pizza Index.

  8. Alex Kantrowitz· Host0:29

    We're here at the Pentagon because the AI story that we talk about on this show has escalated quickly, very quickly into a core national security issue, and you saw that, of course, when the Pentagon banned Anthropic earlier this year. So let's talk about it with Under Secretary of War, Emil Michael, and speak with him about how AI might change the future of warfare and how it might already be doing so. Mr. Under Secretary- Mm-hmm. ... welcome to the show.

  9. Emil Michael· Guest0:54

    Thanks for having me.

  10. Alex Kantrowitz· Host0:56

    So AI's capabilities are increasing exceptionally fast, and you're the man tasked with implementing them at the Pentagon. So I wanna know from you, how is AI going to change war? How do you hope it will change war?

  11. Emil Michael· Guest1:08

    I think, um, one of the analogies I like to draw is having been at Uber, and you look at an autonomous vehicle, and people were scared of Uber from taxis, and then they were scared of autonomous vehicles from Uber. But in reality, if you look at FSD from, from Tesla or even Waymo, the safety statistics are amazing.

  12. Alex Kantrowitz· Host1:29

    Self-driving.

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