The hidden pattern behind successful products | Mark Pincus (founder of Zynga)
6/14/20261 hr 39 min
Mark Pincus founded Zynga—the company behind Words With Friends, FarmVille, and Zynga Poker—and has arguably created more hit consumer products than anyone in history. At Zynga, eight of 10 major game launches became massive hits, reaching over a billion players. Over the past five years, Mark has been synthesizing everything he’s learned about building successful consumer products and turning it into a book, Life at the Speed of Play, which comes out on June 23. This is the first interview he’s done about the book.
In our in-depth conversation, we discuss:
1. His “Proven, Better, New” framework: copy what’s proven, make it better so that 10 out of 10 people say “f*ck yes, I’ll use this”—then add something new
2. Why being less ambitious is the path to the most ambitious ideas
3. His rule of thumb that your instincts are right 95% of the time, but your ideas are wrong 75% of the time
4. “Kill hope before hope kills you”
5. How to raise kids in the age of AI
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Episode transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-common-pattern-behind-successful
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Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0
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Where to find Mark Pincus:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markpincus
• Website: https://www.lifeatthespeedofplay.com
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Introduction to Mark Pincus
(02:46) The Proven Better New framework overview
(07:29) Earning the right to innovate
(08:30) What “better” really means
(12:03) Quick summary of the framework
(12:40) Examples of the framework in action
(13:30) How to use proven correctly on your platform
(15:13) The moral arbitrage of copying
(23:55) Be less ambitious
(28:25) The Bolt.new story and staying humble
(33:15) Kill hope before hope kills you
(37:00) Using AI as a failure machine
(40:08) Why Zynga’s games succeeded (it wasn’t virality)
(48:36) The future of consumer social apps
(57:05) How to know if your product is a B+
(1:01:25) Distribution in the age of AI
(1:15:39) Make everyone a CEO
(1:18:18) Stay close to the metal
(1:21:35) Why Mark says micromanagement is beautiful
(1:23:35) The expert witness
(1:25:05) The number one job of a CEO is to be right
(1:26:35) What Mark is teaching his five kids
(1:35:14) Mark’s “why”
(1:37:08) Mark’s new book: Life at The Speed of Play
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Referenced:
• Tribe.net: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe.net
• Zynga: https://www.zynga.com
• Sid Meier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Meier
• Electronic Arts: https://www.ea.com
• CityVille: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CityVille
• Words With Friends: https://wordswithfriends.com/
• Scrabble: https://playscrabble.com
• Reddit: https://www.reddit.com
• TED Radio Hour, MIT Media Lab founder, 1984 TED talk.: https://www.ted.com/talks/nicholas_negroponte_5_predictions_from_1984
• Peter Thiel on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterthiel
• FarmVille: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FarmVille
• Craig Newmark: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Newmark
• How to consistently go viral: Nikita Bier’s playbook for winning at consumer apps (co-founder of TBH, Gas, advisor, investor): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-consistently-go-viral-nikita-bier
• Angry Birds: https://www.angrybirds.com/
• OMGPop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMGPop
• Draw Something: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draw_Something
• Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/slack-founder-stewart-butterfield
• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach
• Garry Tan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/garrytan
• Brian Armstrong on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/barmstrong
• Jason Citron on X: https://x.com/jasoncitron
• Stanislav Vishnevskiy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/svishnevskiy
• Jeff Bezos on X: https://x.com/JeffBezos
• Andy Jassy on X: https://x.com/ajassy
• Niantic: https://nianticlabs.com
• Pokémon Go: https://pokemongo.com
• Bing Gordon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/binggordon
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Recommended book:
• Life at the Speed of Play: Launch Products People Love!: https://www.amazon.com/Life-Speed-Play-Launch-Products/dp/0063352575/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0
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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com
Clips
Transcript preview
First 90 secondsMark Pincus· Guest0:00
If you're truly ambitious, burn your resume You have all these amazing contrarian perspectives on how to build amazing products. Your instincts are right 95% of the time, your ideas are wrong 75% of the time. We've seen so many founders who just stoically, heroically stick with a losing idea.
Lenny Rachitsky· Host0:15
How do you know if this is just the wrong path you're following?
Mark Pincus· Guest0:17
If you're asking whether or not your product is an A, it's not an A. When you have lightning in a bottle, when you have true signal, everything works.
Lenny Rachitsky· Host0:25
Most products are better versions of things that existed before. Talk about how you get over that hump of copying.
Mark Pincus· Guest0:31
It's almost a moral arbitrage. You became a founder and entrepreneur because you wanted to go be an innovator, but you're trying to win the hearts and minds of nurses in Indiana, like for FarmVille. You're not trying to win awards and respect from your peers. Define your ambition in the eyes of your consumer.
Lenny Rachitsky· Host0:49
Building a consumer social app, very few people have successfully done it and built something durable.
Mark Pincus· Guest0:55
We have beyond a latent demand for social, it's lost the adrenaline. People are proud to tell you they're not on Instagram. They're not missing the party. If you wanna reinvent social, look for where the cocktail is. We know it when we see a great cocktail party. You feel it. You're like, "Oh, I'm so glad I'm here." Today, we're all hanging out on our Claude, on our GPT, but there's no cocktail party. My challenge to your listeners is figure out how to make it rowdy.
Lenny Rachitsky· Host1:22
Today, my guest is Mark Pincus, founder of Zynga, who has arguably created more successful consumer