Immigration Law in 2026: Fighting the Cruelty Machine
3/3/20261 hr 25 min
This week, Rhiannon and Michael talk to two immigration lawyers about what it’s like to practice under the second Trump administration, the unprecedented uncertainty their clients face, why habeas petitions are taking off, the freaks who become ICE lawyers and ICE judges, and why there’s actually…reasons to hope??
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5-4 is presented by Prologue Projects. This episode was produced by Alli Rodgers. Leon Ne...
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First 90 secondsLeon Neyfakh0:00
[upbeat music] Hey, everyone. This is Leon from Prologue Projects. On this week's episode of Five to Four, Rhiannon and Michael are marking the occasion of Peter's first beach vacation by speaking to two lawyers about the daily realities of immigration law under the second Trump administration. Our first guest, Matt Cameron, practices in Massachusetts, where he is seeing a new generation of defense attorneys mobilizing to oppose the federal government's deportation efforts.
Matt Cameron· Guest0:27
Honestly, we can thank the first Trump administration for a huge new wave of immigration lawyers. Minneapolis just, like, setting the standard for how we resist and, and how we respond on the ground.
Leon Neyfakh0:35
Our second guest practices in Texas, where the courts tend to be very sympathetic to the Trump administration. Because lawyers there can sometimes be targeted for speaking out about what they see, we will only be identifying her by her first name, Stephanie.
Stephanie· Guest0:47
Trump one and Trump two definitely feel different. Trump one, it was fucking chaos. They didn't know what they were doing. I feel like in Trump two, they're way more fucking methodical and meticulous.
Leon Neyfakh0:59
One of the through lines connecting these interviews is that while it's easy to read the news and feel demoralized by the cruel strategies being used to speed up and dramatically increase deportations, there is in fact reason for hope, if only because there are ways for lawyers like Matt and Stephanie to slow down what's happening and mitigate the damage it's inflicting on their clients.
Stephanie· Guest1:18
When somebody finally takes their naturalization oath, their citizenship oath, it's huge, and you can see the ramifications and, like, how it changes that person's life and then changes,