Father of the iPod and iPhone on building taste, judgment, and creativity in the AI era | Tony Fadell
6/7/20261 hr 35 min
Tony Fadell created the iPod, co-created the iPhone, and founded Nest (which he sold to Google for $3.2 billion). He’s co-authored over 300 patents, was part of the legendary team at General Magic, and wrote one of the most important and inspiring books for builders, called Build.
In our in-depth conversation, we discuss:
1. The heated internal debates about whether the iPhone should have a physical keyboard
2. Why opinion-based decisions are essential for v1 products
3. Why marketing matters as much as the product itself, and how the iPod almost failed
4. Why voice will eventually become the primary interface with AI
5. Why cognitive surrender to AI is the biggest risk facing product builders today
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Episode transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/father-of-the-ipod-and-iphone-on
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Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0
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Where to find Tony Fadell:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonyfadell
• Website: https://www.buildc.com
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Introduction to Tony Fadell
(02:23) The Blackberry vs. iPhone keyboard debate
(07:50) Micromanaging vs. kind lies: what great products actually need
(15:57) The Nest thermostat and smoke alarm story
(21:22) How to decide what’s worth building: pain plus new technology
(27:36) The three-generation rule: why nothing works the first time
(34:20) The full customer journey: why marketing defines your product
(40:53) The power of storytelling and the press-release-first approach
(48:37) The evolution of product management and the builder role
(50:27) Why AI-generated code creates brittle, unmaintainable products
(58:00) Storytelling techniques
(1:05:45) The next iPhone
(1:13:15) Hardware is back
(1:17:01) What Tony is most excited about
(1:21:38) Working with Tony
(1:25:36) Ethics, morals, and the responsibility of product builders
(1:32:40) How to connect with Tony and Build Collective
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References: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/father-of-the-ipod-and-iphone-on
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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com
Clips
Transcript preview
First 90 secondsTony Fadell· Guest0:00
You still need humans. Don't surrender to the machine. We can use the machines, but don't cognitively surrender.
Lenny Rachitsky· Host0:05
Because it's so easy to build, the things that stand out are the things that are really well thought through.
Tony Fadell· Guest0:09
Today in the AI world, I can just make a prompt, and all of a sudden it gets spit out. You're building on a really crusty foundation. You're getting short-term gain for very, very long-term loss. If you're gonna build a real company, can't be throwaway.
Lenny Rachitsky· Host0:21
One of your colleagues, Hermann Hauser, said ask him how he decides what is worth building.
Tony Fadell· Guest0:26
I always start from pain. Are there new technologies to solve that pain? Bring innovation in, revolution in, and redefine the space.
Lenny Rachitsky· Host0:33
What's the threshold? What's a sign of, "Okay, this isn't big enough"?
Tony Fadell· Guest0:36
Well, the iPod wasn't big enough. It took three generations of the iPod before it became successful. You gotta fail a few times till you find your way.
Lenny Rachitsky· Host0:42
You are so into marketing that piece of building that I think a lot of builders don't think about at all.
Tony Fadell· Guest0:48
The technology's in service of the customer, not we're gonna jam the technology down the customer's throat. A customer only sees what they see through the lens of marketing.
Lenny Rachitsky· Host0:56
You often come back to the value of storytelling for product builders.
Tony Fadell· Guest1:00
Too many times when we're technology led, we talk about the what. We don't talk about the why. The why is the storytelling. When I watched Steve, he was honing the story of the iPhone every day. And so when you saw him come on stage, it was just... 'Cause he had done it 100,000 times.
Lenny Rachitsky· Host1:17
Today my guest is Tony Fadell. Tony doesn't know this, but ever since I started this podcast, he's been near the top of my wish list of people that I've dreamed to have on this podcast.