“Engineers are becoming sorcerers” | The future of software development with OpenAI’s Sherwin Wu
2/12/20261 hr 20 min
Sherwin Wu leads engineering for OpenAI’s API platform, where roughly 95% of engineers use Codex, often working with fleets of 10 to 20 parallel AI agents.
We discuss:
1. What OpenAI did to cut code review times from 10-15 minutes to 2-3 minutes
2. How AI is changing the role of managers
3. Why the productivity gap between AI power users and everyone else is widening
4. Why “models will eat your scaffolding for breakfast”
5. Why the next 12 to 24 months are a rare window where engineers can leap ahead before the role fully transforms
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Brought to you by:
DX—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers
Sentry—Code breaks, fix it faster
Datadog—Now home to Eppo, the leading experimentation and feature flagging platform
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Episode transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/engineers-are-becoming-sorcerers
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Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0
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Where to find Sherwin Wu:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sherwinwu1
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Introduction to Sherwin Wu
(03:10) AI’s role in coding at OpenAI
(06:53) The future of software engineering with AI
(12:26) The stress of managing agents
(15:07) Codex and code review automation
(19:29) The changing role of engineering managers
(24:14) The one-person billion-dollar startup
(31:40) Management lessons
(37:28) Challenges and best practices in AI deployment
(43:56) Hot takes on AI and customer feedback
(48:57) Building for future AI capabilities
(50:16) Where models are headed in the next 18 months
(53:35) Business process automation
(57:22) OpenAI’s ecosystem and platform strategy
(01:00:50) OpenAI’s mission and global impact
(01:05:21) Building on OpenAI’s API and tools
(01:08:16) Lightning round and final thoughts
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Referenced:
• Codex: https://openai.com/codex
• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai
• OpenClaw: https://openclaw.ai
• The creator of Clawd: “I ship code I don’t read”: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-creator-of-clawd-i-ship-code
• The Sorcerer’s Apprentice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorcerer%27s_Apprentice_(Dukas)
• Quora: https://www.quora.com
• Marc Andreessen: The real AI boom hasn’t even started yet: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/marc-andreessen-the-real-ai-boom
• Sarah Friar on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-friar
• Sam Altman on X: https://x.com/sama
• Nicolas Bustamante’s “LLMs Eat Scaffolding for Breakfast” post on X: https://x.com/nicbstme/status/2015795605524901957
• The Bitter Lesson: http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html
• Overton window: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
• Developers can now submit apps to ChatGPT: https://openai.com/index/developers-can-now-submit-apps-to-chatgpt
• Responses: https://platform.openai.com/docs/api-reference/responses
• Agents SDK: https://platform.openai.com/docs/guides/agents-sdk
• AgentKit: https://openai.com/index/introducing-agentkit
• Ubiquiti: https://ui.com
• Jujutsu Kaisen on Crunchyroll: https://www.crunchyroll.com/series/GRDV0019R/jujutsu-kaisen?srsltid=AfmBOoqvfzKQ6SZOgzyJwNQ43eceaJTQA2nUxTQfjA1Ko4OxlpUoBNRB
• eero: https://eero.com
• Opendoor: https://www.opendoor.com
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Recommended books:
• Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs: https://www.amazon.com/Structure-Interpretation-Computer-Programs-Engineering/dp/0262510871
• The Mythical Man-Month: Essays on Software Engineering: https://www.amazon.com/Mythical-Man-Month-Software-Engineering-Anniversary/dp/0201835959
• There Is No Antimemetics Division: A Novel: https://www.amazon.com/There-No-Antimemetics-Division-Novel/dp/0593983750
• Breakneck: China’s Quest to Engineer the Future: https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034
• Apple in China: The Capture of the World’s Greatest Company: https://www.amazon.com/Apple-China-Capture-Greatest-Company/dp/1668053373
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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com
Clips
Transcript preview
First 90 secondsSherwin Wu· Guest0:00
95% of engineers use Codex. 100% of our PRs are reviewed by Codex.
Lenny Rachitsky· Host0:04
For engineers, I don't know what job has changed more in the past couple years.
Sherwin Wu· Guest0:09
Engineers are becoming tech leads. They're managing fleets and fleets of agents. It literally feels like we're wizards casting all these spells, and these spells are kinda like going out and doing things for you.
Lenny Rachitsky· Host0:17
What do you think people aren't pricing in yet?
Sherwin Wu· Guest0:19
The second or third order effects of the one-person billion-dollar startup. To enable a one-person billion-dollar startup, there might be a hundred other small startups building bespoke software. So I think we might actually enter into a golden age of B2B SaaS.
Lenny Rachitsky· Host0:31
I've been hearing more and more there's this stress people feel when their agents aren't working.
Sherwin Wu· Guest0:34
There's a team that's actually doing an experiment right now with an OpenAI, where they are maintaining a 100% Codex-written code base. They run into the exact problems that you're describing, and so usually you're like, "All right, I'll roll up my sleeves and figure it out." This team doesn't have that escape hatch.
Lenny Rachitsky· Host0:47
You've shared that listening to customers is not always the right strategy in AI.
Sherwin Wu· Guest0:50
The field and the models themselves are just changing so, so quickly. They tend to, like, disrupt themselves. The models will eat your scaffolding for breakfast.
Lenny Rachitsky· Host0:59
What's your advice to folks that are like, "Okay, I don't wanna miss the boat"?
Sherwin Wu· Guest1:02
Make sure you're building for where the models are going and not where they are today. There's a quote from Kevin Weil, our VP of Science here, and he likes saying, "This is the worst the models will ever be."
Lenny Rachitsky· Host1:10
Today, my guest is Sherwin Wu, Head of Engineering for OpenAI's API and Developer Platform. Considering that essentially every AI startup integrates with OpenAI's APIs, Sherwin has an incredibly unique and broad view into what is going on and where things are heading. Let's get into it after a short word from our wonderful sponsors.