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Making Sense with Sam Harris

#471 — The End of History, Revisited

4/16/202619 min

Sam Harris speaks with Francis Fukuyama about liberal democracy, American politics, and global order. They discuss the misunderstood thesis of "The End of History," how conservatism has mutated into ethno-nationalism, the self-defeating extremes of both identity politics and neoliberalism, the damage of Trump's second term, the war in Iran, the future of Israel, antisemitism on the left and right, and other topics.

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Clips

China’s model vs democracy
How extremes broke liberalism
Case for colorblind liberalism
Defining liberalism clearly
Conservatism’s illiberal turn
What ‘End of History’ meant
Israel’s liberal promise at risk
A bleak verdict on politics
When individualism backfires

Transcript preview

First 90 seconds

  1. Sam Harris· Host0:00

    [gentle music] You're listening to Making Sense with Sam Harris. This is the free version of the podcast, so you'll only hear the first part of today's conversation. If you want the full episode and every episode, you can subscribe at samharris.org. There are no ads on this show. It runs entirely on subscriber support. If you enjoy what we're doing here and find it valuable, please consider subscribing today. I am here with Francis Fukuyama. Frank, thanks for joining me on the podcast.

  2. Francis Fukuyama· Guest0:28

    Well, thanks very much for having me.

  3. Sam Harris· Host0:30

    Uh, I think you and I have only met in person once. I do- I don't know if you recall this, but I think we met in, um, Mexico ages ago at the, uh, Ciudad de los Ideas conference.

  4. Francis Fukuyama· Guest0:41

    Okay, sure.

  5. Sam Harris· Host0:42

    Um- In Puebla. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

  6. Francis Fukuyama· Guest0:44

    Mm-hmm.

  7. Sam Harris· Host0:44

    That was a, a strangely well-produced event. It was impressive. It was like the Mexican version of Ted, but with, um- Right ... some, uh, obvious narco traffickers sitting in the, in the front row. [laughs] Uh, you know, octogenarians with, uh, twenty-year-old girlfriends or something like that.

  8. Francis Fukuyama· Guest0:59

    Yeah.

  9. Sam Harris· Host1:00

    Um, yeah. Um- Funded by one of the richest men in Mexico. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's good to see you. Uh, we've got a lot to talk about, so I'm just gonna take it from the top here. Uh, y-you've never been on the podcast, which seems like a, um, glaring omission on my part, so apologies to, uh, both to you and the audience that it took so long to get you here. But, um, I just wanna tap your, um, political wisdom, uh, and, um, get your view of the present. But le-let's start with the, um, the beginning that e- Most people will, will know you m-

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